Iryna Vereshchuk: Everyone lives his own story. It will not be easy, but the war will end sooner or later, the main thing is to understand what are fighting for (VIDEO)

Screenshot from video
«Journalist» had talk with Iryna Vereshchuk, President of the International Center for Baltic Sea-Black Sea Research and Consensus practices. During the interview, our guest explained why it is important for Ukraine to create a united civil society? How did it happen that our country is currently in a diplomatic vacuum? How, when analyzing the mistakes of your past, can you create a better future? What, according to Iryna Vereshchuk, can help Ukraine become a full-fledged player in the international arena? How can the aggressor be defeated in the unpublished hybrid war? But what does the International Center for Baltic Sea-Black Sea Research and Consensus practices do for this?

• Good afternoon. Iryno, please tell us about the center you are heading. What is its mission?
  The Center (International Center for Baltic Sea-Black Sea Research and Consensus Practices, ed.) is quite interesting because, firstly, it includes the Council of Elders. It includes three former presidents of Ukraine, three presidents of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia (the Baltics), Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria and so on. We have found some imbalance or misunderstanding from Europeans, Americans and our partners who want to help Ukraine, but do not know how. It turned out that Ukraine, like Georgia, Moldova and other states of the post-Soviet area, formed the so-called «gray zone» in the years after the collapse of the Soviet Union. This is a «buffer zone», where no laws of the economy operate, where there are oligarchs, where there are problems with democracy. And if there are post-Soviet states, for example, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan or Tajikistan, which are in fact autocrats by their true nature, although the constitutions say that these are democratic countries, Ukraine is struggling for its right to be a democratic state. And this is what inspires our neighbors and partners, even our biggest strategic partner, America, who say: «We are ready to help you, just tell us how. We do not understand what is happening to you. All the years of support, the hundreds of millions of dollars that we have invested in your state did not work. You have not become either a complete democracy, or a complete autocracy, fortunately. You have not become totalitarian Russia, you have not become a dictatorship, but you are now on the brink». Each of us (Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine) is struggling for its own happiness and for future. However, we know that both Georgia and Ukraine were experiencing waves of revolutions. Different presidents came or left. And we have already worked out a certain historical narrative of the modern history of the 25th anniversary after the Soviet Union. What is happening «after» is the subject of our center research. And who, as non-presidents, who once governed the state, and thus created this narrative, were therefore historic founders of the realities that we have today. They are not always positive.
  We can criticize, say a lot, that all were bad, in turn someone more, and someone less. Nevertheless, we have to work with what we have. After all, there were many good things, because each of them in his place at that time interval did everything in his power. Looking back sometimes society was not ready; sometimes we simply lacked right institutions of power. For example at the times of Leonid Makarovich Kravchuk then there was nothing: neither a monetary unit nor an army. How could he do more than he could? Perhaps this is all valuation judgments. But in the days of Leonid Danilovich began to adopt the first codes, the first laws, the first reforms, which today laid the foundations, for example, for the law of Ukraine on local self-government. And being the mayor I can tell you that this is a basic law.
  In this way, many can say what the foundations were laid during the time of one or another president. But what is our value: they were in positions, believing that they are doing everything and more than they can, but now they have gone away. They are not endowed with the fullness of power, and therefore they are not fully responsible, and may be free in their statements and in the assessment of their own mistakes. After all, the time has passed, and they, like people deeply thinking, think and appreciate their mistakes already from the perspective of today’s events.
  As Leonid Danilovich (Kuchma, ed.) says: «Could I think when Tuzla island happened in 2003 (the conflict around the island of Tuzla is a crisis moment in the Ukrainian-Russian relations, ed.), that 10 years later will repeat only in such a terrible form as the annexation of the Crimea and the occupation of the Donbas». And they understand that by signing the Budapest memorandum on Security Assurances they could have once thought that the guarantor, the signatory of the Budapest memorandum would not violate it, but would violate all other international treaties and agreements that were signed not only bilaterally, for example, the «Treaty on the friendship» that has been signed forever.
  And only now, analyzing and evaluating the same Budapest memorandum, we come to the conclusion: it turns out that when we put claims to America, because it is a signatory of the Budapest memorandum, America has humbledly replied that the memorandum has not been ratified. From now Leonid Danilovich says: «I could not even think that they would not do everything in their legislation. After all, they guaranteed, they pushed their hand. And I believed that my word, like theirs, such states as America, is weighing more than paper. «It turned out that this is not the case. We are betrayed. Now that we have such a problem with the Russian Federation for years, the guarantor countries, the signatories say: «We will help you, but what can we do. Sorry».
  Now this knowledge of miscalculations and serious, systematic mistakes that have led to irreparable losses, because human life is most valuable, and many people go abroad in hopes that Ukraine can become successful, leave families here or leave with them, it is important to analyze, to be able to foresee how to get out of a state in which we are today.
  The easiest way to criticize is to convict everyone. We have lost an absolutely moral compass. We do not have countries that can guarantee something. We situationally agree on something. And even countries such as America and China cannot even give guarantee themselves. The paradigm of international relations is completely changing. We are now between a hammer and an anvil in those tectonic changes that take place on the world geopolitical chessboard.
  We decided to gather such minds as our 15 presidents, which are from Eastern Europe. After all, Bulgaria and Romania have only recently entered the European family. They have the same problems with both corruption and the judiciary. Being recently in Bulgaria, I was surprised. Not being in the European Union today we are much more ready and willing to go there than Bulgaria, which is already there for 13 years. I understand everything, as well as those who work with me.
  Therefore, we assembled, created a platform and said: «Speak. Presidents, sit down and speak. And we: experts, people of goodwill, people’s diplomats will gather, analyze, elaborate all your abstracts and antitheses, all of your discussions will be recorded. So, after analyzing your mistakes, we will try to create a new future reality. We have only one state».
  So we created this platform. At the moment we have held 4 Forums. Each of them became better than the previous one. The first event was attended by 10 presidents. They told us how it happened that we gave up nuclear weapons when the Soviet Union collapsed, that we signed the Budapest memorandum, and so on. They publicly responded to questions that are of great concern to our society today: whether this was a wicked intent, whether it was just a misunderstanding of the situation, was it still the right decision, and how they today, extrapolating on the relationship with the Russian Federation, which is now, Would you have acted in such a case?
  All this was discussed publicly. We began to develop this topic. For the next forum, which took place in Kaunas, Lithuania, President Dalia Grybauskaitė also came. Everything was held at a high level in the parliament. Lech Wałęsa attended as well, who told how he raised his state, as they say, from its knees. Alexander Kwasniewski has come, note, that he was a communist minister. He worked in the Communist Party, but managed to transform himself, switch to European forms, thus managed to bring his state to the European Union. This transformation is possible.
  We were simply too close to the totalitarian empire of the Russian Federation, so we could not transform that way. We lacked that democratic spirit and willpower.
  Nevertheless, everyone lives in their own history, and we will go this way, most importantly, that there would be no great loss. It is clear that we have to change ourselves, it’s never easy, to change ourselves – it is the hardest.
  The essence of our center’s work is to combine, integrate the experience of our former presidents with today’s realities, into the minds they can lay on and become new models of success, consensus, dialogue.
• Tell us when will the next Forum take place?

We plan to organize the next Forum with our partners and colleagues in Hungary. At the moment, there are the first negotiations that will enable such Forum. Hungary is a small country, but we are interested in this country, because it is now a locomotive of change in the European Union. They also undergo transformation processes, and they are our neighbors. We need to build relationships with them. Our idea is to hold such Forums in Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland. Think about what we can do, how to fix the situation, so that such kind of conflicts that are currently between Ukraine and Hungary will not repeated again.
That is, you not only collect and organize the experience of previous years, but also try to build a new model of relations, as well as resolve issues that, unfortunately, are politicized: the question of language, national minorities? Initiatives like yours are now very much criticized. In the information field, there is an opinion that we have «treason», and virtually no victories. What is your opinion on this? How many «treasons» and «victories» do we have? And can diplomatic consensus decisions still change the country’s future?
The first tip to all: do not be charmed so that there is no disappointment. We must be pragmatic, as all the science of economics is taught in Europe. We will either learn how to treat both defeats and victories calmly when we learn not to accuse anyone who does not meet our criteria when we learn that sometimes we must give in to the general public good and our interests. This is because Ukraine is too young. We still have not enough parliamentarism, democracy. Although we have recently celebrated the 100th anniversary of diplomacy. But these 100 years of diplomatic school were interrupted by a 70-year break of the totalitarian system, which is called the Soviet Union. Even those strong diplomats who were raised in the Soviet school, I believe without exaggeration that this was the strongest diplomatic school in the world, but it was working for a large empire. After its collapse, a diplomat who was raised in the best traditions of world diplomacy, was in a situation where life, economic processes, etc., which took place further with Ukraine, dictated their conditions. And we fell in the transition period of turbulence, when even knowledge and experience do not help.
So now we have a certain diplomatic vacuum. You see that in many states there are no appointed ambassadors, and where we have ambassadors, not all of them are active and authoritative, as they should be. Although I criticize our common official diplomacy and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, I see that a huge breakthrough in popular diplomacy, diplomacy of goodwill, when people who have the skills, knowledge, authority, go abroad and speak without waiting for an invitation from the state. I want to compliment that women are the majority there, they do the work that the state must do or will do. And I do not see anything wrong with that.
I lived in Poland for some time, studied the system of reforming this country from the 90’s to the present day, defended my dissertation on this subject, so I know that Poland was in the same way. We just have no time to make mistakes. Poland was mistaken, perhaps even more. They had 10 revolutions, 2 million Poles traveled to Great Britain. There are still problems, nobody says that they got into Europe and everything changed, that was not the case.
Therefore, it is necessary to adjust to ourselves that everyone, with his strength and skills, his ability and authority, has shaped an agenda for me, which I can do for Ukraine. If you have determined that you can really help Ukraine in the diplomatic field, then we will form groups, unite all together and move on. Diplomacy is something that will save us from completing the war. The war is still about to end, the question is how it will take place. This is a hybrid war. It had no beginning, and, of course, there will be no end, until we determine for ourselves what for us personally will be the end of the war. For the end of the war in Europe will be the full implementation of the Minsk treaties. And will this be the end of the war for us? Is the conduct of the elections on the Donbass, if those who today represent the rebellious Donbas, who will be defeated there, will be the embodiment of the authorities of the Donbas for Ukrainian society? Or, for example, that will be the return of the Crimea? Complete capitulation of Russia? What is the surrender of Russia: Putin’s withdrawal and the arrival of Navalnyi?
From the moment when we give ourselves an answer to what is a victory for us, then we will understand what we are fighting for. But at the moment it is not clear what we are fighting for: we are for good and against everything bad. Everyone needs to take part of the responsibility on their shoulders and carry the cross, because we do not have another Ukraine.
My answer is that for us there will be a victory: it is not the collapse of Russia, not the change of the Kremlin or any other regime in Russia. By studying this country, I realized that they are going a different way. We do not even have to keep track of their news, we do not have to watch and even analyze what laws they are taking. There’s all hybrid there, it’s hard to find a golden middle. Let them work with themselves, and we need to focus on ourselves. When we build a successful country, when at least 500 thousand Ukrainians who have gone to work now will return, I will consider this a personal victory. We do not need a burned earth, but people. We do not have enough hands, brains, Ukrainian souls, which would be patriotic. I do not mean extreme nationalism, but patriotism, which raises the Ukrainian land and the Ukrainian spirit.
For me, there will be a victory when the prime minister or president comes out and says: «Look, I took the country and after 5 years I came to you and ready to report». Not plainly, there are not 146 reforms, but calmly, as it is done in developed countries, in the form of dialogue, recognizing mistakes and telling of common victories. And when victories are dominated by mistakes, it will be Ukraine’s victory.
We can be different, emotionally or not, but we must unite the common goal – Ukraine. If this happens, if we all feel this, then the power will change, it will respond to the demands of society. For example we have recently voted for the creation of the Anticorruption Court. Maybe they didn’t want it but this public pressure made them do it. We, having good bases, the foundations of statehood, and with the Donbass, we will sort it out. Yes, it will be difficult, but we will.

• In your opinion, is a person really a drop in the ocean? Are any changes dependent on each of us? Now society is disappointed, a large audience says it is not possible to change anything: I tried, I was out there, I stood, but I cannot change anything. Where do you draw inspiration to do something daily for the realization of this personal and common goal, called «Ukraine»?
  Yes, I believe that every person is this drop. Moreover, I believe that every person is the universe. This universe, which personifies each person, is multiplied by the synergy of good and good deeds, which can be done only by the elbow of the elbow. One person in the field is not a warrior, no matter what this man do or has done. Of course, in our history there were probably people of light, however, they were destroyed. Therefore, it is difficult for us to understand who is hero for us and who is not. What has happened is that, after years of terror, the destruction of our intellectual elite, which could have become a synergy that builds statehood, we lost the direction. Now, when people appear, for example for me such examples are Joseph Slipyj, Omelyan Kovch, who saved little children during the Holocaust, Lyubomyr Husar, etc., who are not only spiritual leaders, they were leaders who rallied the nation without allowing it to self-destruct . When we talk about the opportunities of every person today, now we have a great opportunity to group, for example, even by writing an appeal on Facebook. I do not say good or bad, I say it’s an opportunity.
  We lack civil society. Today, up to 10% of our citizens are involved in civil society. All the others are watching, or even worse, they say that the game is lost. If the authorities and society show that they are prepared not to fight each other, but to bear responsibility (the people for voting for such power and the government for being controlled and accountable to the people who chose it) – this will become this synergy, which should not be broken. We now have a gap between the authorities and the people: the people do not feel that they have an influence on power, and the authorities are therefore not afraid, because they are feeling their lack of control, and that they will deceive the people and in the next elections. When people will understand that each of his voices became decisive when the people say, I am ready to discuss each candidate, despite your surname, and looking at the program and the case, is considered in the programs and will ask the candidate the right questions, then it is clear who for whom votes and why. Then you are responsible. And if we vote for someone to finish the war tomorrow. And this is enough to vote for you, and we have populists, ignoramuses, beautiful guys and girls who do not solve anything, because they cannot solve it. This is our shared responsibility and our platform, on which we must work.
  What would you like to wish Ukrainians and Ukraine?
  I want to wish wisdom, but one that gives strength. Because even the knowledge you have or the diplomas are not wisdom, it’s the information you receive. And transforming this knowledge into skills and constant work on oneself, and publishing it as a product – this is wisdom. These are both mistakes and achievements. And when wise to approach every business, everything will be corrected. We now have to straighten Ukraine. We are due to distrust, lack of attention to one another become oppressed, pessimistic, feel despondent. It should not be so. Therefore, I wish wisdom to all. Let’s us be wise and everything will be okay.
  For a video version of the interview, see the «Journalist» website.